March 11, 2021

S2:E2 Marilyn | Parosmia II: Tasting Metal, But Testing Negative


Compared to Brooke's episode on Tuesday, this episode is a great example of "same virus, different stories." In the second episode of our Parosmia Series, we talk to Marilyn who had some of the weirdest and worst symptoms of Covid... yet never received a positive test. Not one. Without a positive test can she still claim to have had Covid? How else can she explain the acrid metal taste she felt in her mouth every time she consumed onions? Or the heaviness in her chest when she tried to breathe? We talk about how unsettling it is to be betrayed by your body and Raymond shares why it's important to get a second opinion if you don't feel heard by your doctor.

On another note, Caroline tries her hand at parody songs about the pandemic and they are not great.

For more help with Parosmia check out the links of the organizations below:

AbScent is a UK registered charity supporting people who are experiencing the distressing effects of smell loss. AbScent offers information, support and practical advice for people living with smell disorders. https://abscent.org/ (On March 15th we are releasing an episode with Chrissi Kelly, the founder of AbScent, who will share more about her research and studies into smell disorders.)

The Smell and Taste Association of North America (STANA) advocates for funding for research on smell and taste disorders and collaborates with individuals living with these chemosensory disorders, healthcare professionals, and institutions to provide evidence-based education, resources, and networking opportunities.  https://thestana.org/

The Monell Center for Advancing Discovery in Taste & Smell - their mission is to improve health and well-being by advancing the scientific understanding of taste, smell, and related senses. https://monell.org/

Transcript
Caroline Amos:

Hi, I'm Carolyn Amos.

Raymond McAnally:

And I'm Raymond McAnally.

Caroline Raymond:

And we are FATIGUED (laughter).

Caroline Amos:

Marilyn, I love you so much. I'm so happy that you got a chance to talk to us today. And that I got a chance to FaceTime you super late last night.

Marilyn:

Thank you for joining me, or rather for having me, it's my podcast now. Thank you for joining me.

Raymond McAnally:

Awesome, new management.

Marilyn:

You're both fired. We'll talk later about.

Caroline Amos:

I love that! I'm so happy. And thank you so much for having me, Marylin.

Marilyn:

(laughs) You're so welcome. We can't get started with a bit, we'll keep going.

Caroline Amos:

You are a like a very unique case, because you experienced a lot of freaky freaky symptoms in the middle of a pandemic, and got a bunch of tests done. And they all came out to be negative. Take us through like a little bit of a timeline of what you experienced and how your doctor visits went after that?

Marilyn:

Yeah, so I'm in like, mid July, I was at work. And I worked at a bakery. And we were experimenting with new like food or something (laughter) and for the last couple days, I had noticed that when I was walking, I was like running out of breath a little quicker. But I was like maybe I just picked up the pace because I'm trying to get past people in social distance. And then that day, we tried out a recipe and I took a bite of this delicious potato and onion pizza. And I said, Hey, we can't serve this. It tastes like metal. And everyone was like, I'm sorry, what did you say? And I was like, This tastes like metal. And they were like, No, it doesn't. And I panicked, and they were like, you have to go home, you have to go get a COVID test, and you cannot come back until you have a negative result.

Raymond McAnally:

Oh, wow.

Marilyn:

Um, and at that time in July, the results were taking seven to 10 business like Monday through Friday business days to get back into you. So in that time, the shortness of breath that I had been experiencing started to get worse. I was like having some coughs here and there. But it wasn't really persistent. It was one of those things when it was out of the blue, it was terrible. But the fits were only happening like two, three times a day. And then I had this really sharp chest pain that was really persistent. And sometimes I felt like there was like something sitting on my chest.

Raymond McAnally:

Wait, hold on one second, so you were having coughing fit two or three times a day?

Marilyn:

Yeah, like it wasn't a persistent cough, I would have like a coughing fit, or like I would run out of breath and just cough.

Raymond McAnally:

How long they last?

Marilyn:

um, 30 seconds to a minute, like too, too long, but like not long enough for me to think I had the plague (laughs). And I think I feel like five to seven days, I still didn't have my test results. I finally made an appointment with my primary care physician and it was in e-appointment. I described everything to her. And she was like, so um, yeah, you probably have COVID. And I was like, Okay, my boyfriend whom I'm living with doesn't have any symptoms. Are we sure? And she was like, well, you're both very young. You're very healthy. I'm surprised you have as many symptoms is you do, given how young you are. So he's probably just asymptomatic. Don't even think about that. When did you get your test done? And I said within three days of showing symptoms, I guess if you factor in like the shortness of breath a couple days before the metal taste. And she said, okay, when you get your test back, there is like a 60% chance that you will get a false negative. If you get a negative test, ignore your results, because these tests are wildly inaccurate within the first five days of symptoms being exhibited. Treat your symptoms like you have COVID because I think you do and she gave me the prescription. She told me which vitamins to take the zinc, the vitamin C, D, what everyone knows about now?

Raymond McAnally:

Well, no, hold on. So she said at the time, her experience was the 60% false negative rate?

Marilyn:

Yeah, if you take the test within five days of being exposed or symptoms coming on, then you had about a 60% rate.

Raymond McAnally:

Got it. And then in case anybody's following along and this pertains at all - you're in New York, right? I am. So that's a doctor's experience in New York. That's it. That's really interesting. We hadn't heard this kind of numbers.

Caroline Amos:

Yeah, that's it. staggering numbers. That's, that's not fun at all.

Marilyn:

I know. So I got my test back and it was negative. But of course, she had already said, ignore that you have COVID. So I was like, Okay, great. Um, and then several, a couple months later in September, so I had like, I guess I'm skipping along, but by early August, I was fine. I had quarantined for an extra several days, once my symptoms had mostly passed. I was still -

Raymond McAnally:

So what was that about a month? or

Marilyn:

Yeah, it was about three weeks, three and a half weeks. Um, I was still getting shortness of breath when I was like speaking or like walking up and down stairs. But it wasn't quite, it wasn't anything like before the chest pain and the weight on the chest had gone. So I was like, great. We're all set. And then September, I got this second bout where I was getting the chest pain again, I was running out of breath while I was talking. I was getting really like bad weight on my chest. Um, and I emailed my doctor, and I said, Hi, this is happening. And she said, you're probably a Longhauler. If you want to go get a second COVID test and an antibody test, I would recommend that and I said, Great. And I got those. And then both of those results also came out negative. I had no antibodies.

Raymond McAnally:

Saying it wasn't in your system - is that how would you compare the first bout - the shortness of breath issues - with the second bout? Were they the same or elevated?

Marilyn:

Um, they were pretty much the same. I would say with the shortness of breath, I was more active. Because I was back at work while I was having the second bout because she was like, your - I would recommend taking it easy. But technically you are not contagious. And you don't have to quarantine because you've already had it.

Raymond McAnally:

Right. So it sounds like, so when this happened in September, you had - you were like I know what this is. This feels just like what happened before? Okay.

Marilyn:

Exactly.

Caroline Amos:

Marilyn, remember that one time you came up. I live on the fifth floor of a walk up. And I remember you came to use my bathroom because we were in my neighborhood walking around one day. And I get out of breath going up five flights of stairs, but I'm pretty sure we hit like flight number two and you were winded.

Marilyn:

Yeah, I was.

Caroline Amos:

I have never seen it from you.

Marilyn:

Yeah, we were like chatting. And I think I was like, Hey, I cannot talk to you anymore. But you can talk to me and you can get back out to your apartment, we can start talking again.

Caroline Amos:

Yeah, that was the first time I was I was... I love you and I was always worried about you, but like seeing it in action was very, was very concerning

Raymond McAnally:

When was that? Was that during September?

Marilyn:

That was, uh, August. So it was like right after I had mostly recovered, but I was still like getting my breath back. So yeah, I've never tested positive for anything or any antibodies. Um, I've had people tell me it sounds really similar to like, and very extended anxiety attack if maybe if it was something like that. But I still have my primary care physician saying, no, you had COVID or this is what these symptoms all sound like. Particularly the loss of taste was what really freaked me out with it, but I never lost my smell. So it was all of these random, different symptoms, that had a return in September. And I went and I think they ended up giving me an EKG, chest X ray, an antibody and a COVID test. And they did a couple other bloodwork things for like iron levels and something else and they were like, there's nothing physically wrong with you. CityMD they are all negative. We don't know what's going on. I guess come back if it gets worse.

Caroline Amos:

(Sarcastically) Well Marilyn you were probably faking it to be honest. So...

Marilyn:

I tell myself that every day (laughing).

Caroline Amos:

I mean, but it's the truth like when you when there's inconclusive evidence, it's so easy to just turn on yourself and be like, Oh, am I faking everything. Is this even real?

Raymond McAnally:

Yeah, or

Marilyn:

Yeah, is it psychosomatic?

Caroline Amos:

Yeah. Hang on, though. I thought of a joke. And I just want to say it. (singing) Do you remember when you lost your taste in September, and that's all the joke that I have

Marilyn:

You're really committing to it, though (laughter). (laughter).

Caroline Amos:

I really just wanted to do it. I just wanted to say it.

Raymond McAnally:

(dry sarcasm) Well, well you did it.

Caroline Amos:

Yeah, that's what happened (laughter).

Raymond McAnally:

Alright, so Marilyn you said that the long issues - the breathing issues - returned in September. Did you also lose taste and smell at this - in September as well?

Marilyn:

I didn't lose smell or taste. So the interesting thing about the metal taste is that just comes and goes. Like every one

Raymond McAnally:

To this day?

Marilyn:

To this day, like last week, I was eating something and I like looked at my boyfriend and I was like, this tastes like metal again. And he was like, you should probably get that checked out. And I was like, I guess but at this point *sigh*

Raymond McAnally:

It's not because you're actually a secret, underground boxer and you're always having nosebleed and you're always swallowing blood (laughter).

Marilyn:

Like, I need to hide my knuckles now (laughter).

Raymond McAnally:

Is there? I mean, have you found a pattern to it at all?

Marilyn:

I was telling Caroline it is mostly like onion based dishes. Like the potato and onion pizza from before, or like a stir fry or something with onion in it. Um, I've done I've looked up a bunch of stuff. And people are like iron deficiency. And I would be like, Oh, yeah, probably except TMI. Like, it's not like this is just happening around my period when I'm most iron deficient. So that doesn't quite make sense. Um, or some people say it's like a blood sugar issue, but I've never had any. I mean, I could count on one hand, the amount of times I've been to a doctor, you know, in the last adult years of my life, but I've never had anyone mentioned anything about blood sugar levels, or that being a sort of issue for me.

Caroline Amos:

But what's fascinating is that onions are a huge trigger in Parosmia.

Marilyn:

But it's not every onion that like I've ever eaten. It's not like every time I eat onions, could you imagine onions are in so many things that would be miserable.

Raymond McAnally:

Wait. So even right now? It's not every time you eat onions this happened?

Marilyn:

No -

Caroline Amos:

(Singing) I'm NOT every onion!

Marilyn:

(laughter) Now you're just mining for your album.

Caroline Amos:

Inspiration is striking me you guys.

Raymond McAnally:

It's like we're in the studio trying to find the next track.

Marilyn:

I'm the muse. And Raymond you're mixing and Caroline is just down there.

Caroline Amos:

I'm in my so very sweaty closet that is just very, very dark. But what onions are good for you? Like what? What? I'm I want to keep this in mind because I know you're coming over for dinner this Saturday night. And I want to be conscious of that. What what onions Can you eat?

Marilyn:

I don't know. It's like - It's not a consistent thing. It's not every time I eat onions. But I've noticed like that's the only pattern I can think of when it hits. I'm like, oh, or like a Thai food. Like, I guess that's a really soy based thing. I'll have like a Pad See Ew. I, I don't know. I wish I had more like I wish I was more investigative with it and like kept a log like Caroline has!

Caroline Amos:

Good thing you're talking to us because we love to investigate this stuff. And we're very fascinated by it. So...

Raymond McAnally:

It is it is fascinating to me. Because I, when Caroline first told me about what you were experiencing, I expected there to be, you know, some sort of - so many people in the last year never got a confirming test saying that they had COVID but they had all these reasons to believe that you actually have more confirmation that you never had it, then yeah. Than that you could have possibly, that's fascinating to me.

Caroline Amos:

Yeah.

Raymond McAnally:

And because I know when I got my my antibody test, I just did it too soon. I probably do you have the antibodies now but I miracled into a free test when I was about 11 days out from testing negative. And so I just did it too soon. And at the time, I didn't know that I should have waited 30 days. But I have not gotten had a reason to get retested just yet but I would like to and but that's amazing to me that here you've exhibited Cyst Symptoms, twice two major symptoms, that very much would tell any doctor like your doctor that you had it. And here you keep testing negative.

Marilyn:

Yeah, it's it's part of why in my head, I'm like maybe I made it all up and the like, I might have had one or two symptoms that were very similar to COVID, but also very similar to like severe anxiety or something like that. And just in the midst of New York in July when COVID was still such I mean it's still such a question mark but especially in the earlier part of last year. If I just kind of spiraled into that possibility, and then my body just started leaning into these things that might have been slight inconveniences or like, minor symptoms of something bigger and just to like, amplified them, or if I just focused on them so much because I was so scared that it was COVID. And it was actually, at the same time, Caroline had COVID. Um, Caroline was a quarantining in South Carolina? North Carolina?

Caroline Amos:

North Carolina, but they're very easy to confuse they look the same. I've driven through both.

Marilyn:

But they like sent me flowers from North Carolina. They're like, I feel really bad that you have to quarantine right now and I have to quarantine too. And I know it sucks.

Caroline Amos:

Oh right? I sent you some flowers!

Marilyn:

You did and it was really sweet. But you were in the thick of this terrible bout of COVID? Like, the worst that I've heard somebody our age having?

Caroline Amos:

*Giggles

Marilyn:

I'm sure -

Raymond McAnally:

Some people have fever dreams ,Caroline sends fever flowers. (Music) To go back, because right now all we can deal with is the fact that you don't know. Your body's responding to something your body's fighting off something. It's, it has two really weird symptoms that if we weren't going through COVID, you, you actually might be going to get more batteries of tests to find out what's going on with you. People are almost saying, well, it's got to be COVID. So, you know, you'll you'll get over it. You're not because you haven't even been prescribed any medications or anything?

Marilyn:

No, after I did all of my tests. at City MD back in September, they were basically like, Well, nothing physically is wrong with you. So come back to us if it gets worse. So I never got any prescription or diagnosis outside of the one physician that was like, yeah, and it must be COVID with the chest pain and the pressure and the breath and the metallic taste. I don't know what else it could be. And I was I was working with, with the public at that point. I was like doing counter work and taking the subway every day. And I had just had this nightmare car filled with like, tourists and like people singing and everything without masks. And so my doctor was like, that's probably where you got it. It makes sense. Um, yeah, the fact that if it's not COVID people don't know what else to tell me. It's kind of crazy.

Caroline Amos:

disheartening, for sure.

Raymond McAnally:

Yeah and I can relate to that, at least to some degree. When in - when I was 20. I had two discs to rupture. And I ended up having surgery, but for over a month everybody kept saying, Oh, you just have a slight herniation because I wasn't showing enough pain, even though I was in an extreme amount of it (laughing). And it was, psychologically, it was incredibly hard to like, my, my trust in the medical community just tanked. Because I was in so much pain and everybody was telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about with my own body. And it wasn't until I found the right specialist and he had the forethought to do an MRI out of like the first doctor in five that we found out what the problem was. And then I felt such a relief, such validity that this was real. And then it wasn't in my head or it wasn't something I was blown out proportion. And I hope you can get that!

Caroline Amos:

Yeah!

Marilyn:

Yeah, thank you!

Raymond McAnally:

Yeah. I mean, like, like, for example, you were saying a minute ago that you could this could all be in your head. But is that something you really think is true?

Marilyn:

Um, I really don't know. I do. Part of me does think that it was like an extended, like, an extended physical, like, emotional breakdown. Um, but also part of that sounds so archaic and so like, you know, it feels so weirdly gendered of like a woman like goes into hysteria or like has like a nervous breakdown for two weeks. Like, it sounds so dated that it doesn't seem like something that could still happen in modern medicine. So I don't believe that.

Raymond McAnally:

It also doesn't sound like you have any history of anything like that, like you. Have you ever had a panic attack before?

Marilyn:

I've had a panic attack. I've had depression but I've never had like a panic attack that lasts for days at a time. And it's not usually - it's either much more subtle or much more overt.

Raymond McAnally:

An that's probably also to your - to your validity, I guess - I don't know if that's not the right word, but you do know what a panic attack feels like for you. And this was not that?

Marilyn:

So that's it. So I can only half believe that that could be the case because it it's the only other thing that can match all of the symptoms that I had that line up. Each individual symptoms seems like it has several other causes. But all of it grouped together could either be like COVID, or an extended anxiety attack. And I've never experienced anything like that in an anxiety attack, especially not over two weeks at a time and then later for another week and a half at a time. Um, but with COVID. I have no antibodies, no positive tests to speak of, I just have one doctor who said, I don't know this lines up, let me know if it gets worse.

Caroline Amos:

Well, it's important to remember that Nick Cordero had only negative tests, and he was one of the first Broadway greats to die from it. That's, you know, not to not to worry you or anything like that. But it's, it's really, really, it's more common than you'd think. I'm really interested in the fact that, when we, when we started the podcast, I on our, on our Instagram and in my texts, and DMS and everything, I had a lot of people reach out that were like, I had a COVID scare once do you want to talk about it? And at the time, I was sort of like you had a COVID scare, big deal. I had it. I want to talk to more people that had it. I was judgmental. And the more people I do talk to who have had scares, who have psychologically been through the wringer throughout this, the more I'm realizing, oh man, who am I to judge anybody's personal experience in this pandemic, if the pot of the potential for having COVID is enough to make you break down? If it's enough to put you in a state of anxiety for many days, Then why the hell not cover these stories? And I'm, I'm just I'm really grateful that we're talking to you about this, because it's a really great example of like, doubting your own mind doubting your own feelings, doubting the doubting the medical staff. There's just a lot of there's a lot of doubt and uncertainty in this world, right now.

Raymond McAnally:

Oh, yeah. And if the project we're doing here has has really long term legs, I think the psychological impact of this pandemic and COVID whether you had it or you were just scared of getting it will be one of the most long lasting symptoms.

Caroline Amos:

Yeah.

Marilyn:

I mean, that's the shared trauma that everyone is going to have to develop from, or recover from. I mean, everyone at this point, I think knows somebody who had a case of it and but like in terms of the actual worry and group, psychology that goes behind, being worried about it questioning any time you might have a cold or a flu or just have a panic attack. I'm thinking that that could be a symptom. It's such a unique - like Doomsday frame of mind that everyone has been in for almost a year now.

Caroline Amos:

Well, it's also important to note Today is February 22. And as of today, we've officially lost 500,000 people to COVID in the United States alone. And that's just documented cases and the real number is probably far higher than that but to grim day for sure. And my birthday week too, fuck.

Raymond McAnally:

You're just proof that good things can happen around this time to.

Marilyn:

There you go!

Caroline Amos:

Stop that actually made my whole day. Thanks, man. (laughs)

Raymond McAnally:

Yeah, it's, we were we just had a friend over. We've got a nice outdoor patio space so we can, you know, see people every now and then from a distance safely and our friend brought over her baby who is adorable and was born - I want to say she's coming up on a year. I think she was born like a week into lockdown or the pandemic.

Caroline Amos:

Whoa!

Marilyn:

Oh my goodness!

Raymond McAnally:

And we were commenting on like, she is so used to meeting adults with masks on. Another friend pointed out recently that their child, they finally got to see their child play with other kids. Like a baby play with other kids and that had never happened before.

Caroline Amos:

Oh my God.

Raymond McAnally:

At like seven or eight months old.

Marilyn:

My nephew was born I'm not this last November, but the November before and my sister was just finishing her maternity leave in late February, early March. And I think she was back at work for about a week or two. And then she got she was a bartender, and then just bars shut down in Houston, and she got sent home and her for months, her son was just like, this is great. I am with my mom and my dad all the time every day, like, but they were also both of them were so stressed because they were like, Remi only knows our house, our living room, our backyard. And they had moved back to Houston from the Bay Area, so they could raise their baby with their family all around. And, like, my mom still only sees him once every several months. And Remy is just like he is he's gonna have the worst separation anxiety. They put him into daycare, finally, because they were like, We just need to socialize this like nearly a year old child. Yeah. And he It was so much harder because he had only known like, the his living room and his mom for the first like eight months of his life, which isn't abnormal, there are plenty of stay at home moms who were able to provide that for their kids. But usually, there's so much more activities and enrichment that go along with it. Yeah, we're

Raymond McAnally:

Yeah, we're all going to have to reassimilate re-learn how to socialize again, to some degree.

Caroline Amos:

Oh, yeah, it should be noted that Marylin's nephew is one of the most beautiful, hilarious, amazing kids ever.

Marilyn:

Oh, he's so charming, but I haven't seen him since he was a month old. I haven't seen my family in a year and two months. And now we have this like with Remy growing, we have this very physical visual passage of time.

Raymond McAnally:

Oh, that's interesting.

Marilyn:

Because I had only ever - I usually see my family once or twice a year, if it's like a really good year. But like it's been over a year now. And I can see how much time has passed and how much change has happened. Like take away the catastrophic events, and I'm just missing this kid hit all of these different milestones. And it's weird.

Caroline Amos:

It's also really hard, because your family is just went through the whole snow and ice storm in Texas. Not even like a week ago. And yeah, dude, I really hope you get a chance to see your family as soon as possible. Because I know, I know how much you miss them. (Music)

Raymond McAnally:

How are you dealing with this unknown in your life every day? What do you do to try to not think about it? What do you do to address it? I don't know.

Marilyn:

Um, well, I've been really lucky and haven't other than the random metallic taste I haven't had as many symptoms since that really bad bout in September. It was like it needed to just kick me one more time (laughs). Before I could finally recover.

Caroline Amos:

(Singing) Kick My Baby One More Time.

Marilyn:

(Laughs) Caroline I wear to God! (Laughs)

Caroline Amos:

I'm so sorry. Please continue.

Marilyn:

I am definitely more. I'm more aware of my breath in relationship to my body, which at some point in time - I acted in college and went through all of those classes. And so there were times when I was really aware of it. But I hadn't acted in a couple years or taken a class. And so suddenly, I was very, I was tracking very much how my breath was reacting to physical activity. Because I never got that official diagnosis. When I do start to lose breath. I'm like, Wait, is this reassuring? Do I actually know like, Am I still recovering from this thing? Or am I just talking very loud and very fast and not allowing myself to take in the breath that I need? So I guess it's mostly being hyper aware of that. The metallic taste. I just give it a Google. Whenever it happens again, I'm like, maybe there will be like a new article. Or I'll click on something I forgot to click on last time and that will make the most sense and

Raymond McAnally:

has any parosmia literature helped you at all? Have you seen anything that seemed familiar or helpful?

Marilyn:

Not really. Especially because it's mostly dominated. I feel like right now with the total lack of taste, or like dullness of taste that goes around most - I say most it's such a wide spectrum - but the the with the idea people have when people lose their taste or smell with COVID. The fact that I didn't lose my smell and the fact that my taste I could still taste but it was this accurate metal instead of nothing or dull or a different profile. It's it's hard for me to find a lot of literature that relates to that.

Caroline Amos:

We love to end with my favorite question, because sometimes it's really nice to end on a positive note. But what gives you hope right now and what's bringing you some joy?

Marilyn:

Oh, um, well, while it's sad to see time pass with Remy. Like our pick up the day or video The day is really great because even if even if he has grown up, recognizing adults with masks and everything and not getting as many kids he's still, he's happy. This is his world. He it's kind of sad that he doesn't know any other world but also like, he doesn't know that there's like a collective trauma happening. And he still goes outside and touches snow for the first time and then cries into the camera because it's too cold. And he's still discovering really beautiful and terrible things. And my dog is a really a ray of sunshine, and I've been training her and just seeing like, and she's a rescue so seeing her become more comfortable with us and with others and also just learning always feels really cool. Makes me feel responsible. And it's gonna sound like I'm sucking up to the host but Caroline has been in my little bubble for a long time. And so any anytime we get to see Caroline is really special and feels like a safelink to the outside world.

Caroline Amos:

Same to you. You guys have brought me so much sanity and joy in such a dark time. And I just I love you so much. I'm gonna make you cry.

Marilyn:

Ha. She's been singing so much. I gotta get her to cry on the spot. (laughs)

Caroline Amos:

You jerk. (laughs) (Music) Hey, this is Caroline.

Raymond McAnally:

and Raymond.

Caroline Amos:

Thank you so much for listening to Fatigued.

Raymond McAnally:

From patients to paramedics, long haulers to lessons learned. Sure, it's the same virus but these are very different stories.

Caroline Amos:

If you have a question or a story you'd like us to address on an episode, please email us at fatiguedpodcast@gmail.com.

Raymond McAnally:

And don't forget to check us out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter

Caroline Amos:

Clubhouse.

Raymond McAnally:

Right, clubhouse? What is that?

Caroline Amos:

I don't even know. But whatever it is, we're here to offer genuine conversation so we can humanize the issues surrounding COVID and the pandemic. These stories deserve the space to be remembered and we relish the opportunity for connection in this isolated time.

Raymond McAnally:

Perhaps you will too.

Caroline Amos:

Stay positive.

Raymond McAnally:

Test negative

Caroline Amos:

And thanks for listening!

Raymond McAnally:

Bye